TOKENS PODCAST: S3E5
An interview with Megan Barry, former mayor of Nashville. Lee and Megan discuss the tragic subject of addiction and how it led to the accidental overdose and death of her son Max; what it has been like to find hope and healing in both the midst and aftermath of such a tragedy; what there may be to learn, both personally and communally, about the various stigmas and statistics currently surrounding the issue; and the ways, both large and small, in which the current epidemic of addiction may be fought.
ABOUT GUEST
Megan Barry is the former Mayor of Nashville, TN. She was the first woman to be elected to the office. She is also a former councilmember at-large. Her professional experience includes working as a corporate executive, independent consultant focusing on business ethics and corporate responsibility and as an adjunct professor. She her MBA from Vanderbilt University and currently serves on the board of the Women’s Fund for the Community Foundation. She has previously served on several boards including the YWCA of Middle TN, and the Center for Non-Profit Management. After losing her son to a drug overdose in 2017, Barry is working to combat the addiction and opioid crisis, helping those struggling with addiction by speaking up and speaking out. She has been invited to speak on this topic at TedX Nashville, Q Commons, the International Women’s Forum, Georgia Pacific, OZY Media, National Overdose Awareness Day and many other events and organizations. Her son’s story recently appeared in ELLE magazine as part of a series on the crisis. Her greatest hope is that she can bring light to someone else’s darkness.
ABOUT TOKENS SHOW & LEE C. CAMP
Tokens began in 2008. Our philosophical and theological variety shows and events hosted throughout the Nashville area imagine a world governed by hospitality, graciousness and joy; life marked by beauty, wonder and truthfulness; and social conditions ordered by justice, mercy and peace-making. We exhibit tokens of such a world in music-making, song-singing, and conversations about things that matter. We have fun, and we make fun: of religion, politics, and marketing. And ourselves. You might think of us as something like musicians without borders; or as poets, philosophers, theologians and humorists transgressing borders.
Lee is an Alabamian by birth, a Tennessean by choice, and has sojourned joyfully in Indiana, Texas, and Nairobi. He likes to think of himself as a radical conservative, or an orthodox liberal; loves teaching college and seminary students at Lipscomb University; delights in flying sailplanes; finds dark chocolate covered almonds with turbinado sea salt to be one of the finest confections of the human species; and gives great thanks for his lovely wife Laura, his three sons, and an abundance of family and friends, here in Music City and beyond. Besides teaching full-time, he hosts Nashville’s Tokens Show, and has authored three books. Lee has an Undergrad Degree in computer science (Lipscomb University, 1989); M.A. in theology and M.Div. (Abilene Christian University, 1993); M.A. and Ph.D. both in Christian Ethics (University of Notre Dame, 1999).
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TRANSCRIPT
Lee Camp: This is Tokens. I'm Lee C. Camp.
Megan Barry: We got home and it was at about 9:52, and I'd missed a call from Max.
Lee Camp: That's former Mayor of Nashville Megan Barry. She's recalling a missed phone call from her son, Max.
Megan Barry: And I called him back and of course it went straight to voicemail because I didn't realize that while I was calling him, he was dying.
Lee Camp: Max was 22, struggling with addiction. He died from an overdose. In this episode, we'll hear from Megan about her life-altering experience of walking through grief, as well as her experiences with addiction and shame, community and faith.
Megan Barry: I hope that by telling Max's story, we help raise the awareness for other parents.
Lee Camp: And, we'll hear about her experience as the first woman to hold office as mayor of Nashville. All this, coming right up.
Part 1
Lee Camp: Megan Barry was born in Santa Ana, California, grew up in Overland Park, Kansas. After graduating from Baker University, she moved to Nashville and received her MBA from Vanderbilt University, then began a career in business ethics as a consultant, eventually ran for an at-large Metro council seat that she won in 2007, in 2011, in September, 2015.
Megan Barry made history as the first woman to hold office of mayor in Nashville, Tennessee. Welcome Megan.
Megan Barry: Hey Lee. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Lee Camp: Thanks so much for coming to be with us.
Megan Barry: I, you know, having somebody read your bio, it's so funny. It's like, yeah, I guess I am that person. But all of that stuff seems a long time ago.
Lee Camp: The years do start to pass rather quickly, don’t they?
Megan Barry: They do, they do.
Lee Camp: You went to Baker university, a Methodist school, were you raised Methodist?
Megan Barry: I wasn't, I was actually raised Catholic. But it was a great little college and I actually got my undergraduate degree in elementary education and taught for a while. I have great respect for teachers. I immediately stopped doing it. It was very hard.
Lee Camp: Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm in my 22nd or third year of teaching college students. But I remember when our boys were young, once going to sit in one of our son's first grade classroom, and watching the teacher take care of those kids. And I thought, Oh my goodness, I can't believe how much work this is.
Megan Barry: Absolutely. I mean big shout out to all teachers everywhere, especially our Metro public teachers who are dealing with so much at the moment.
And Godspeed to them.
Lee Camp: So you came to Nashville right out of college?
Megan Barry: No, I actually lived in London for about three years and spent time there. And then when it was time to get my MBA decided to go to Vanderbilt and came here.
Lee Camp: What did you do in London?
Megan Barry: I did all kinds of things. Lots of odd jobs. I just loved being over there.
Lee Camp: It's a great city.
Megan Barry: Yeah, it was.
Lee Camp: I probably spent, well, Nairobi probably first and then London, probably second, as far as international cities I've spent time and it's so great.
Megan Barry: Nice. I have not spent time in Nairobi, but it sounds pretty amazing.
Lee Camp: Yeah, yeah. Then to Nashville from there, to do your MBA?
Megan Barry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like so many people, I was going to move here. I was going to spend my 18 months or whatever it was and then leave.
And 30 years later, I'm still here.
Lee Camp: You and me. And what, half the population?
Megan Barry: Well, it's a hard city to leave because it's a great city.
Lee Camp: So what got you at first into public service and Metro politics?
Megan Barry: I think it's a pretty typical story. I got involved first with my neighborhood association and my child's school, you know, the PTO and through that, just evolved into understanding that there were some really good ways to get an impact to your neighborhood if you actually had a voice on a Metro council.
Lee Camp: I presumed that that was not part of your family history or background?
Megan Barry: My grandfather had served on the board of education, but in a small town in Kansas, but it wasn't really part of our trajectory.
Lee Camp: And as you started getting into local politics, what were things that you found hopeful and what were things that you thought, oh, my, this is really terribly broken?
Megan Barry: Well, you know, the good news is a lot of it does really work. And I think that when you think about the people who step up to serve in Nashville, you have a collective of individuals who really want what's best for their neighborhoods.
And that always came out. And so much of the council deliberations. People care about their city and they care about their communities and they care about their constituents. And that's the thing I think that works. And then I think the things we could do better, because I hate to say the word broken, but is to be more deliberative and engaging everybody.
And I think you're seeing that happen just across the political spectrum, both nationally and locally.
Lee Camp: It's certainly struck me as an outsider to politics certainly in Nashville that we seem to have so many people, not just in governmental posts, but in the nonprofit world, the business world, who really do care about the city and care about the community. It's pretty remarkable, it seems.
Megan Barry: Definitely. Well, and, government isn't going to solve all the problems. And I think that was the one thing that I have always appreciated about Nashville is people's willingness to step up in those different places that you just described. The nonprofit world, the education world, to use the collective brain power that we have here to solve some really serious problems.
Lee Camp: And then what was the decision like to run for mayor?
Megan Barry: Yeah, I think it was just a natural progression of seeing that you know, there was power and being able to make a difference in people's lives and I wanted to be able to do that and being able to be the mayor gave me that opportunity.
One that I will cherish until the day I die. It was such an amazing, amazing thing to be part of.
Lee Camp: Was that something you had ever envisioned when you were young?
Megan Barry: No. I had run a couple of times when I was young for, you know, secretary and that kind of stuff. And my mom taught me a great lesson when I was in fifth grade. I ran for secretary, and I ran against my best friend, and I lost by one vote. And at the dinner table that night, my mom said, I know your handwriting and you voted for your best friend. You didn't even vote for yourself. And she's like, and you lost by one vote. She said, that's a good lesson. And it was, you need to at least believe in yourself.
Lee Camp: That's where that old virtue of meekness and humility kind of bites you in that way, doesn’t it?
Megan Barry: Yeah. Yes.
Lee Camp: So you, you get elected. What were some of the excitement and hopes as you came into that role?
Megan Barry: Well, I think one of the things that gets talked about a lot, and I felt an immense responsibility on this, was the fact that I was the first woman. And you know, I went on to be a lot of other firsts that I wasn't proud of.
Lee Camp: For those who are familiar with Nashville politics, here you're aware that former Mayor Barry is alluding to the legal and ethical matters that prompted her resignation. That story has been told; but it's not the story we're telling here today.
Megan Barry: The first woman to be elected as the mayor was a way that little girl's coming after me didn't have to be the first. Just like with the vice-president Harris now, you know this is something that we'll always be.
But those times of being reminded that I was the first were oftentimes pretty humorous.
Lee Camp: I bet they were. Yeah. What are some of those that come to mind?
Megan Barry: Well, one of my favorites was right after I got elected. And my husband and I hopped in the car to just get out of town for a day or two to take a breath. And we were staying at a hotel and the next morning I came downstairs and asked for a cup of coffee. You know, the guy behind the counter.
And he's like, oh my gosh, you're the first lady. I was like, first lady? He's like, yeah. And I said, no, no, I'm actually the mayor. And he said, oh, well, we'd heard the mayor was staying here, but we just assumed it was your husband. And I, you know, and that, those things kind of happened. You know, another one of my favorites is when we were standing at a shovel dig one time where we're, you know, putting shovels in the ground to start a construction project.
And I'm standing next to the CEO and the CFO of this company and we're waiting and we're waiting and we're waiting. And I had a schedule I needed to keep to, and not finally, I said to the CEO, I said, do you know what we're waiting on? And he's like, yeah, we're waiting for the mayor to get here. That's well, I said, you've been talking to her for the last 10 minutes and he looked at me and he said, oh, I'm so sorry. I thought you were a guy. I'm like, nope. So I mean, those things happened a lot and you know, I'm just glad that I could break some of that ground.
Lee Camp: Yeah. What's it like for you processing that kind of stuff psychologically? Do you just kind of, are you able to laugh about it and move on or what's that like?
Megan Barry: Yeah. I mean, you have to laugh and you, and you also get a chance to show that women can actually be in positions of importance and influence. And I think that was helpful because it raised their awareness too, a little bit. I'm guessing if there was ever a mayor, who's a woman in another city where they're digging, they're gonna not make that same mistake.
Lee Camp: So do you feel like with that development of you being elected into that position that it has helped, have you seen kind of concrete markers of the continued breaking of sexism or patriarchal kind of assumptions?
Megan Barry: I mean, I think you're seeing it across the United States, but I, you know, in the last Metro council races here in Nashville, we now have more women on the Metro council than we've ever had before.
I think those barriers are coming down. I think it's exciting.
Lee Camp: Your son Max passed away nearly two years into office. He had been to rehab at one point prior?
Megan Barry: He had. Max's story is probably one that a lot of parents may have experienced. I think we were naive parents and I hope that by telling Max's story, we help raise the awareness for other parents. We, you know, Max was a kid. He definitely smoked pot in high school and smoked pot in college. And his drug use, at least we believed, was fairly minimal. But by his junior year in college we could tell there was something wrong, and we got him home, and he was clearly in crisis. And I can remember taking him to the emergency room that night he got home. And going back in there with the doctor and because Max was over 18, he had to sign the form that would have allowed me to have any information about what was happening. And Max was not signing any forms. I was getting no information and I'm standing outside the door and the doctor comes out and says, I can't tell you anything.
The only thing I can tell you is that whatever we're dealing with is going to be done by six o'clock tomorrow morning, and you're going to need to come back and get him and have a plan. And first of all, I didn't know what we're dealing with. Second, I wasn't really sure what the plan needed to be. And I can remember going home that night and getting on the internet and just Googling treatment facilities. ‘Cause I knew it was drugs, but I had no idea and I didn't call anybody. I mean, you know, at this point I'm a smart person, you know. I'm the mayor of Nashville and it never crossed my mind to reach out and to ask somebody for help because I was ashamed, and I was embarrassed, and Max’s shame and embarrassment was also evident. I mean, he wouldn't sign that form because he didn't want me to know. And I think about that doctor walking out. And I think about if that doctor had been in that room and said to Max, you have cancer. Max would have been like, get my mom in here right now, and we're going to figure out how to deal with this. But we didn't. So Max did go to rehab. You know, it was 30 days in patient. And for people who, we were lucky, I mean, we found, we had a bed that we could send him to. And we had the resources to do it because that's a huge stumbling block.
So he went and then he went back after he was finished, he went back to finish his senior year and at college. And you know, my husband, Bruce, talked to him every day because he was convinced he'd hear something in his voice if something was wrong and we never heard it. We also didn't know how critical that one year mark is for people who have been in rehab.
And so we kind of were, we, I think the best way to describe it is we felt like we had checked a box and that that box was done. Like we didn't ever have to worry about this again. And when Max came around to that one year, that's the night he died. And there's so many things I wish I knew now that I didn't know then.
And so much of that is driven because of the stigma of how we treat people who are suffering from addiction. And, and that Max's journey if he had lived was going to be one for the rest of his life. And we just didn't know that. And I wish we had.
Lee Camp: When you think back to the day that he passed, how do you frame that narrative in your mind? What do you remember?
Megan Barry: Max and I spoke that day. You know, we had text exchanges like parents do, and our last conversation was right before Bruce and I went out for dinner that night. And Max and I texted back and forth and thankfully it ended with, I love you. And my response was, I love you too. And Bruce and I went out for dinner and one of the things that we were really trying to focus on at that point when I was mayor was to find time for just us.
And so I had promised him I would turn my phone off, and just the two of us would have dinner, and I would wave away folks who wanted to have a chat. I would say just call me on Monday when I'm in the office, and just try to be present for my husband.
And so I did turn my phone off, and I turned it back on when we got home, and it was at about 9:52, and I'd missed a call from Max. And so I called him back and of course it went straight to voicemail because I didn't realize that while I was calling him, he was dying. So I think about that phone call.
And I think if I had taken that call, could I have heard something in Max's voice? Could I have changed his trajectory? And of course I know in my heart I couldn't have, but man that phone call is still something I think about every day.
Lee Camp: How did you learn the news?
Megan Barry: About two in the morning, there were knocks on our door and there were two police officers standing outside our house. And you have to remember because I was in the position I was at that time, I really believed that something really horrible must have happened in Nashville. So in my mind I was mentally thinking, okay, I need to get dressed.
I need to get focused because there's going to be some tragedy out in Nashville, I'm going to have to go deal with. And when the police officer walked in and said, ma'am, I'm so sorry, you know, Max has gone. He had to say it three times and then he had to say it to Bruce because I couldn't hear him.
And, and I, you know, and at that moment, our, our world fell apart. For anybody who's ever lost a child, the chasm that you fall into is so deep and the grief is so deep and I remember going back to work maybe a couple of weeks after Max had died. And just thinking if I can just have momentum, if I can just keep walking, keep moving, keep doing what I do, have a busy schedule.
Just make sure that because if I have to stop, I'll have to grieve and, and I wasn't ready or capable of that yet. In fact, that didn't come until after I left office, that I was able to actually have the ability to think about and deal with Max's death.
Lee Camp: You're listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, and the good life. We’re most grateful to have you joining us.
This is our interview with Megan Barry, former mayor of Nashville. Coming right up, more about how Megan has dealt with and learned from her son's addiction and overdose; as well as an important conversation about shame and vulnerability, and the place shame plays in addiction. Part two in just a moment.
Part 2
You're listening to Tokens and our interview with former Nashville Mayor Megan Barry.
You mentioned a moment ago the way in which shame so clearly plays a part in the dynamics you experienced of not even thinking to call somebody, and Max's inability to tell you what was going on when he's at the hospital. As you look back and as you've continued to walk this road since then, how do you think about the presence of the power of the inhibition of shame?
Megan Barry: It's interesting. I mean, shame comes in all kinds of ways when we do things that are shameful, I think, but I. I think what I have come to appreciate is that folks who are struggling with addiction and who suffer from abuse disorders is this is not a moral failing. There are all kinds of moral failings, but this is not one of them.
And I stood at the coffin of a young woman and I listened to her parents and her father just be wrecked with the grief. And in his grief he said if she had just fought harder, if she had just been better, if she had just tried harder.
And, and I knew this young woman, she was one of the strongest people I've ever met. And she tried really hard. But that's like standing at the grave of somebody who has cancer and saying if they'd only been a better person, if they'd only tried harder. So I think shame can be assigned to things where people have moral failings, but I don't think this is a moral failure.
Lee Camp: In my mind, I don't know this is true because I'm not in any sort of sociological study about it, but in my mind, I make up that one of the currents that could feed that sort of thinking would certainly be certain interpretations of religious faith. And yet, you know, I teach theology for a living and so, I'm always reminded of this text in the New Testament where the apostle Paul talks about that our fundamental problem is that we know what's the right thing to do, but we don't have the power to do it. And that's the way actually he defines the power of sin is that it's not that we know what the right thing to do is, and we just choose not to do, it is that we actually there's these powers of various types that overtake us and overwhelm us.
And I've heard a number of people in recovery communities talk about, it's not a sin. And I think I know what they mean by that. I think they mean by that, you don't simply choose you don't work harder, like you just said to get over this. Right?
Megan Barry: Right.
Lee Camp: And I think, and actually that's what the apostle Paul would have said too, right?
He would have said, no, it's not about you choosing but the need for help beyond ourselves in some way, a community, a God, you know, the reality of God, the reality of some sort of power beyond us that makes it possible.
Megan Barry: And I think that that is really key oftentimes to people who are in recovery and finding the long term journey is that connection to spirituality and to God.
And I think that there are all kinds of ways to recovery and the journey is wide and it is different for everybody. And I think that's the other thing that I want us to be more deliberate about and that is thinking through medically assisted treatments, treatments that might look one way for one person, but different for another person, because at the end of the day you want something that works.
I can remember when I first started carrying Naloxone in my purse. ‘Cause I've got with me because you never know if you're going to come upon somebody who's overdosing. And somebody said to me, oh, that's, that's crazy that you carry that. That's just encouraging somebody to do drugs. And I thought about it and I think the best analogy I had was that as you walk down the airport or walk into buildings you oftentimes see a defibrillator on the wall because if somebody is having an emergency, we're going to break that glass and we're going to give them the help that they need. And we're not going to judge. We're, we're not going to decide, well, you know what, I'm sorry. They look like they should've walked more or they had one more cheeseburger than they should have had.
And so I'm not going to give them the defibrillator. And I think of it like that, that this life-saving drug is so helpful to people, because you can't save them if they're not alive.
Lee Camp: In thinking about the current opioid epidemic and the skyrocketing numbers of death by overdose. What do you see as key social or political contributing factors to the reality in which we find ourselves?
Megan Barry: Well, I think partly COVID. COVID has absolutely cut people off. And if you are at all walking this journey, I think that people who have struggled struggle more under COVID.
I also think that we talk about this in pretty one dimensional ways. We don't talk about it beyond treatment. And I think that's how we thought about it with Max. We thought, well, he got treatment. He's cured. Check the box. And so I think we have to be thinking more broadly about how this is something that you're going to manage for the rest of your life and what are the parameters that we're going to put in place to help you manage it.
If you have a child that has type one diabetes, you're going to have to come up with strategies to help them manage their diabetes for the rest of their life. And I think that that's how we have to think about this. And we don't. We think about it as treatment and done, but it's not.
Lee Camp: Or maybe even worse, we can certainly, at least going back to what the 1970s with the Nixon administration, we’ve thought about criminalizing drug use or criminalizing addiction, I suppose.
Megan Barry: Right. I don't know if you saw what Oregon did in this last election. They actually passed legislation that decriminalized all drugs. And when I say all drugs, I mean, meth, I mean cocaine.
So if you get picked up with low amount of drugs, you pay a fine, but you also have all of the funds that get paid are being put into treatment and programs. I have no idea how that will go. I know Portugal did that back in 2000 and they did not see any increase in drug use. I think that's always the fear that if it's decriminalized, then you know, everybody will do it.
I I don't know enough about it to be an advocate or one way or the other. But I think what it shows is that there are different ways out there to think about how we deal with this epidemic. And, you know, our state has not been progressive on this at all. So there are other States that are doing more, trying different things. And I think for us to get our arms around it, Tennessee should be a leader and not a follower.
Lee Camp: How do you think of the family dynamics involved in addiction?
Megan Barry: Yeah. Gosh, well, I can speak from my own experience. I think when you have a child that's in crisis, your whole family's in crisis. And because nobody's talking about it again, that shame and that guilt and that stigma sits with you and your family. It sits with you and your marriage. It sits with you and your close friends. And, and I think that it manifests itself in all kinds of ways that are not always healthy and not always right. And I think that what you have to figure out is when you have a child in crisis, just like if your child was sick, how do you find the resources and the supports that you need so that you can manage to get through this?
You know, my husband and I have been married 28 years this year and we've been through a whole lot. And, and I think about the parts of Max that we went through together. And, you know, after you lose a child, 80% of families end in divorce after you lose a child. And that's not just with children who die of overdoses, that's with any child.
And I think, gosh, like you just need a support system in place that helps you. And we were so lucky. I mean, we had so many dear family members and friends that helped us so that we’re married 28 years.
Lee Camp: Yeah. You had an ongoing tumultuous time following Max's passing. Do you look back at that and are you able to disentangle whatever you went through in various strands or is it all just a heavy weight of all parts and pieces of the same crisis in your life?
Megan Barry: I think there were threads of it that go through lots of different parts of my life. I think that like any mother, my concern for my child was daily, when I thought he was struggling. And you don't have the opportunity to put your time and attention and energy into anything else, if you're focused on worrying about your child.
And then there are days where you don't want to worry about him, right? You just want some space, some place of happiness and peace, and then you feel guilt for that because you're their parent and you know, they should be the forefront of your mind. But when you are dealing with it all the time, and I know people out there who I hope can relate to this, you'd sometimes just want to walk over to another corner and just say, can I just have some space myself?
And sometimes I think that happens in families and it can end in bad ways.
Lee Camp: Yeah. As you continue to process your own grief and your own growth as a human being out of such crucibles, what have become some key daily practices or habits that help you live well these days?
Megan Barry: Well, faith is, has been a huge component of this. I think that without faith in God and without my faith in all of the lessons that I have learned that I will learn from them and be a better person. I don't think I could have gotten through this.
And I have this wonderful girlfriend. So she and I have known each other since we were in the fourth grade. And you talk about what are the daily things. So she sends me a Bible verse every morning at 6:30. And so we share our Bible verses at 6:30.
She has not missed a day. And I love that the first thing I'm reading on my phone every morning is something that grounds me to get me through the rest of the day. And those are the things that I think you look for, those little things that build you up and give you confidence and faith.
And the other thing I've learned is that life is really, really, really full of chances. First chances, second chances, third chances, fourth chances. I've been so blessed to have been given so many chances in my life. And I still do. I still get chances in my life. And I think that what I have also figured out is that you have to be brave enough to take them. And to know that you'll have a safety net that God's going to catch you. My mom used to say that God never gives anything you can't handle. There were some days I think, really God? Thanks.
Lee Camp: Well, speaking of your young self, if you looked back from your perspective now, and could give some words of encouragement to your young self, what might that be?
Megan Barry: Well, it's funny. I think this is Probably applicable to just how I've lived my life. And that is go through every open door. Right? You never know where that door is going to take you. And most of the time, those places are going to go in good places and the doors will shut behind you.
And so just keep taking the next door and the next door and the next door and your life will be a really exciting journey. I think the worst thing that I could have told my young self would have been to just stay put. And I'm so glad I didn't. I'm so glad that I had an adventurous spirit and Max had an adventurous spirit, and that was one of the reasons why he and I were so close.
In fact, after we've talked a lot about his death, but. I just want to mention something. After he died, we created a fund at the Oasis center, which is here in town and serves underserved youth. And the fund has dollars in it that kids can apply for to go travel. And clearly COVID has kind of put a kibosh on that for a little while. But the idea is that in order to celebrate Max's life and his adventurous spirit, giving other kids a chance to see a part of the world that they wouldn't have seen will open a door for them, that they might not have had the opportunity to walk through.
And that is really the spirit. I think that Max's soul leaves with me every day. Is that, that adventure.
Lee Camp: What are other things that you recollect about Max that you hold dear?
Megan Barry: Well, he had, uh, a lovely sense of humor and he also had a very great hug. He was a big hugger and he would give me these great big bear hugs.
Lee Camp: I've seen a picture of the two of you hugging. It’s a very sweet picture.
Megan Barry: Yeah, he's just, he was such a, you know, it's funny. I was looking at some stuff the other day, because as I mentioned, I'm trying to write a lot of this down. And I remember the morning of my inauguration and Max had come home from school because he was out in Washington state. And so his time clock was a little off cause he was probably two hours behind and we had to get up to go to the prayer breakfast.
And I can remember trying to get him up. I mean, at that point it was just like, If you just will get out of bed and put on clothes, like nothing else has to happen today. And my team initially had been pretty focused on that. He had really long hair and they had been like, why don't, you know, can he cut his hair?
I'm like, oh my gosh. Like I could never ask Max to cut his hair, but I did at least get him to pull it back in the picture. So it's back in kind of a ponytail. You can't really see it. It looks like it's short. So, you know, those kinds of, those morning conversations. I can still remember one morning. Max always wore athletic shorts, a white t-shirt and his baseball cap backwards.
That was all he wore. And he would say to me, mom, like why, why do you care so much about how you look? Like, why does it take you 45 minutes in the morning to get ready? And he's like you got those mayor clothes that you have to wear everywhere, he's like you should be dressed for comfort and speed. And that's what Max was always dressed for: comfort and speed.
Lee Camp: Well, thank you so much for sharing with us.
Megan Barry: Lee. My pleasure. Thank you for asking and thanks for letting me say Max's name out loud. The one thing about parents who have lost their kids is I know sometimes if you're around somebody who has, you're not sure whether or not to ask.
I love it when somebody says Max's name. So thank you for letting me say it.
Lee Camp: Megan has been writing a memoir, and she offered this piece which she recorded prior to our conversation. Here's Megan:
“Somebody's Son”
You've been listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, the good life, and our interview with Megan Barry, former mayor of Nashville, capital of the great state of Tennessee.
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Our thanks to all the stellar team that makes this podcast possible. Executive producer and manager, Christie Bragg of Bragg Management. Co-producer Jacob Lewis of Great Feeling Studios. Associate producers Ashley Bayne, Leslie Thompson, and Tom Anderson. Our engineer Cariad Harmon. Production assistant Cara Fox. Music beds by Zach and Maggie White. And our live event production team at Stonebrook Media led by Phil Barnett.
Thanks for listening, and peace be unto thee.
Tokens podcast is a production of Tokens Media, LLC and Great Feeling Studios.
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