TOKENS PODCAST: S1E8
A white dirty cop falsely implicates an innocent black man on drug charges, who gets sent to the Federal Pen for ten years
Andrew Collins, a white, dirty cop, falsifies his testimony. A black innocent man, Jameel McGee, gets sentenced to ten years in the Federal Pen. This is the story of the unanticipated consequences of a false-arrest gone bad, and then gone bad again.
Since this episode was released we learned of additional complexities.
For more details click here.
WATCH VIDEO OF INTERVIEW ON YOUTUBE
ABOUT JAMEEL MCGEE AND ANDREW COLLINS
There are many words associated with the racial tensions in our nation today. "Fear." "Anger." "Hate." But what about "friendship?" As current as today's headlines, this explosive true story reveals how these radically conflicted men chose to let go of fear and a thirst for revenge to pursue reconciliation for themselves, their community, and our racially divided nation. The story these men share may help us see a path forward. One that we walk together. Collins and McGee are now best friends, but it wasn't always that way.
Jameel McGee: "For the next three years not a day went by that I didn't think about my son whom I had never seen and the cop who had kept me from him. And for most of those three years I promised myself that if I ever saw this cop again, I was going to kill him. I intended to keep that promise."
Andrew Collins: "I watched this angry man march through a crowd, a little boy and another man struggling to keep up with him....The man walked straight up to me, stopped, and stuck out his hand. I took it. "Remember me?" he asked in a tone that sounded more like a threat than a question.
Racial tensions had long simmered in Benton Harbor, a small city on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan, before the day a white narcotics officer--more focused on arrests than justice--set his sights on an innocent black man. However, when officer Andrew Collins framed Jameel McGee for possession of crack cocaine, the surprising result was not a race riot but a transformative journey for both men.
Falsely convicted, McGee spent three years in federal prison. Collins also went to prison a few years later for falsifying police reports. While behind bars, the faith of both men deepened. However, the story took its most unexpected turn once they were released--when their lives collided again in a moment brimming with mistrust and anger. The two were on a collision course--not to violence--but forgiveness.
They had both found God in prison, and He allowed them to find friendship with they met each other. This is a story about reconciliation, forgiveness, and hope. One that can hopefully launch conversations about the problems we face as a nation, and how to best address them.Both Collins and McGee seek to share this message with our deeply divided nation. They have appeared on The TODAY Show, among other media channels. Their book, Convicted: A Crooked Cop, an Innocent Man, and an Unlikely Journey of Forgiveness and Friendship (Random House) has been nominated for a Christopher Award. Moreover, they continue to speak at churches, colleges, major companies, and non-profits.
ABOUT TOKENS SHOW & LEE C. CAMP
Tokens began in 2008. Our philosophical and theological variety shows and events hosted throughout the Nashville area imagine a world governed by hospitality, graciousness and joy; life marked by beauty, wonder and truthfulness; and social conditions ordered by justice, mercy and peace-making. We exhibit tokens of such a world in music-making, song-singing, and conversations about things that matter. We have fun, and we make fun: of religion, politics, and marketing. And ourselves. You might think of us as something like musicians without borders; or as poets, philosophers, theologians and humorists transgressing borders.
Lee is an Alabamian by birth, a Tennessean by choice, and has sojourned joyfully in Indiana, Texas, and Nairobi. He likes to think of himself as a radical conservative, or an orthodox liberal; loves teaching college and seminary students at Lipscomb University; delights in flying sailplanes; finds dark chocolate covered almonds with turbinado sea salt to be one of the finest confections of the human species; and gives great thanks for his lovely wife Laura, his three sons, and an abundance of family and friends, here in Music City and beyond. Besides teaching full-time, he hosts Nashville’s Tokens Show, and has authored three books. Lee has an Undergrad Degree in computer science (Lipscomb University,1989); M.A. in theology and M.Div. (Abilene Christian University, 1993); M.A. and Ph.D. both in Christian Ethics (University of Notre Dame, 1999)
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Transcription
Lee: This is Tokens. I’m Lee C. Camp.
Jameel McGee is a black man from Benton Harbor, Michigan. One day in 2005, Jameel was on his way to meet his baby son for the very first time. He stopped at a convenience store. As he left, a white man named Andrew Collins approached Jameel. “Give me the drugs,” Collins said, something to the effect. “I don't have any drugs,” McGee replied. But that day, Collins was not just a white guy trying to buy drugs. He was a plain-clothes narcotics officer with the Benton Harbor police department. He had received a tip that there was a drug dealer at that convenience store. So when he saw Jameel McGee exit the store, he handcuffed him, put him in the back of a squad car, and then discovered an ounce of cocaine in the center console of McGee's car.
But it turns out the drugs did not belong to McGee. The FBI told Andrew Collins that he had the wrong guy. Good end to a false arrest story.
Except it wasn't. Collins falsified the arrest report. McGee protested his innocence; he insisted on a trial, but the system trusted Collins. The system failed McGee. The system found McGee guilty, and the judge sentenced McGee 10 years in the federal prison. A tragic end to a false arrest story.
Except that is not the end of the story. Andrew Collins was a dirty cop. He would soon be arrested himself for falsifying reports, possession of drugs, and stealing. The judge sentenced Collins to three years in federal prison. Meanwhile, McGee, exonerated, had nonetheless served four years for a crime he did not commit. And during those four years, he says...
Jameel: All I thought about...
Lee: That's Jameel.
Jameel: … was seeking him out and hurting him because of what had happened and what he did.
Lee: All he thought about was hurting Andrew Collins. So after Andrew served 18 months, he got out of prison, but he was wanting, somehow, to make amends. Then, unexpectedly one day, Collins and McGee happened to see each other at the Benton Harbor city park, and McGee starts coming at Collins.
Andrew: He wasn't walking towards me, he was walking at me.
Lee: … says Collins.
Andrew: He reached out his hand to shake my hand. But when I gripped his hand, and I said, “Jameel, right?” he squeezed down to the point where I thought he was gonna break my hand. And I thought that was going to be the day of reconciliation, and that's just not what happened.
Lee: We share what did happen in our interview with Jameel McGee and Andrew Collins in just a moment.
Jameel McGee was wrongly sent to prison. Afterward, he would be homeless for a season. While still homeless, Jameel began working at a nonprofit. It turned out, he found himself working alongside the most unexpected of people. You guessed it: Andrew Collins. Andrew himself was there trying to make his own life right, owning his wrongs. Slowly, as you'll hear in their interview, Andrew and Jameel became friends: friends enough to write a book together and travel together.
There are two things I would like to say about this episode before we go to the interview. The first one is this: in this time of social upheaval, we have continued to see the strange fruit of injustice and the bitter fruit of broken social systems. As a white man, I want, at a minim to make sure I keep listening, keep acknowledging, keep bracketing my own privilege by letting others speak, even when it makes me uncomfortable. The second thing I would like to say pertains to one of our show’s purposes for existing: doing theology in public. An interesting thing happened while producing this episode. As I listened to the interview, I found myself wanting to edit out some of what we ivory tower types, in all our flowing gown snobbery, sometimes call God talk. Then the irony hit me. If I were to edit out some of the God talk, it would be a classic example of a white man silencing a black man's speech, a classic example of cultural appropriation. A white man asks a black man to tell his story, then edits it, appropriates it for his own purposes. Then there was also this: that this podcast is actually a podcast about doing theology in public. Theology, you will remember, is literally God talk. So here we are, a podcast about doing God talk in public, and I'm considering silencing some of the God talk, just because I don't want others to be put off by it. Then there's this final irony. We live in a historical moment in which much public religion is fueling hostility and contempt. Here, though, we have two men, one white, one black: one, a once corrupt white police officer, the other, a once wrongly imprisoned black man. Yet, they have become friends, not by being naive, not by refusing to tell the truth, but by telling the truth as they understand it, telling even truths hard to hear, hard to be told, and sometimes hard to listen to. So then, I hope you will, along with me, sit through any discomfort of whatever sort you may encounter and listen. Listen for the truth, beauty, and goodness that there is here in this tragic story.
[Applause]
Please welcome Jameel McGee and Andrew Collins. Jameel, you're from Benton Harbor, which is a pretty tough place. I'm from Alabama, which can be its own kind of tough place. Now I'm a pacifist, but I also have this kind of violent Alabama streak in me, in which I don't like people to mess with me, and I don't like people to mess with people I love. And I kind of have this sense that if I were in your shoes, there would be, still, days I think I might wake up and want to kill Andrew. What's it like for you now, years into this process of having to deal with losing four years of your life to prison and being wrongfully charged and losing your voice?
Jameel: What it's like now? It's a lot better now. At that time it was rough for me. I was dealing with a lot mentally because of this situation, and what gets me through is the help of God, first and foremost, and also wanting something different for my son.
Lee: Early on in prison, you feel all this rage coming out of you for wrongful imprisonment, and you get in these horrific fights, which you always win, but you realize that it's that rage, and that you're kind of fantasizing about punishing...
Jameel: Yeah. In the midst of the rage and those fights, I didn't see those people for who they were. I saw Andrew, because that's all I thought about, was seeking him out and hurting him because of what had happened and what he did.
Lee: So, Andrew, what was the process like for you when you get out of prison yourself, and then you two meet? What's that early experience like for you in beginning to deal with what you've done?
Andrew: Once I got caught, I started very quickly getting myself back. Like, I didn't wake up one day and say, “You know what, I'm going to be a corrupt police officer.” It was kind of this slow fade of giving away my integrity. So it was almost immediate, after I got caught, that I started kind of getting the old me back, getting really who I was back. And so I had this radical encounter with Jesus throughout this entire… these circumstances, and while I was in prison, I really felt like God was calling me back to Benton Harbor to be reconciled with people. My wife thought I was crazy. My pastor thought I was crazy. Everybody said, “You just need to flee. You need to stay away from there.” But I really felt like God was calling me back there. So in 2011, after I'd been out for about a year, I was in Broadway park, which is the South side of Benton Harbor. And there was a outreach event going on there. And my church was hosting it, and I was there and I was willing to have conversations with people. And one of those people ends up being Jameel, and he came at me through the crowd. I tell people he wasn't walking towards me; he was walking at me. And he reached out his hand to shake my hand. But when I gripped his hand, and I said, “Jameel, right?” he squeezed down to the point where I thought he was gonna break my hand. And I thought that was going to be the day of reconciliation, and that's just not what happened.
Lee: So you all tell a story in your book about how this is obviously deeply personal, but it's also a story that's deeply social. And you talk a lot about the ways in which your personal experiences are a consequence of social dynamics and powers that are greater than you. And there's lots we could point to, but one that specifically comes to mind is that, Jameel, you were charged with possession, one ounce of crack cocaine, wrongfully charged but convicted nonetheless, and sentenced to 10 years in federal prison, correct? And Andrew, you are charged with a variety of charges, which you admitted to doing, including possession, including stealing, including corruption, falsifying reports. And you were sentenced to, what, three years in federal prison? So what do you make of these discrepancies, just in sentencing, for example?
Andrew: You look at the case and Jameel and I had the same exact judge. I lied in front of that judge in Jameel's case. And then I had to answer to that judge once my case came up two years later. So same judge, same courtroom, same exact crime: possession of crack with intent to deliver over five grams, under 50, first offense. Jameel had never been in trouble with a drug crime before. Neither had I. I admitted guilt. He fought it all the way to trial, and at one point, the judge told him, “You have wasted this court's time. It is obvious you are guilty, and I'm going to sentence you to the maximum of my ability.” So he was sentenced more harshly because he chose to use his right to take it to trial, because he knew he was innocent. So I look at that now, and you know, back in 2005, 2006, when this was all happening, you know... social justice, unfair sentencing guidelines, we weren't talking about that stuff, right? We were living it. And now you look back on it, and you say, “How in the world could that even pass?” So if me, as a white man, can see that happen and say, “You know what, it's just a coincidence that that all happened,” if we continue to stay ignorant to the problems that are in front of us, if we continue to walk away from these conversations because it's convenient for us as white people to, then we never step into a place where we get to help our black and brown brothers out, and sisters, too. And these same systemic issues continue.
Lee: And Jameel, this was not your first instance of having to deal with unjust treatment at the hand of the system. Is that right?
Jameel: No. No, it wasn't the first, and it definitely wasn't the last either.
Lee: And you say in your book that your sense in that experience was that you were not innocent until proven guilty, but guilty until you could prove your innocence. How did that shake out?
Jameel: Yeah, it was hard and I still couldn't - no matter what I tried to prove - to prove my innocence. It was just unheard of. Nobody wants to hear that. It was rough for me to know that, like, everybody just thought I was guilty right off the bat. Without even a question, not even talking to me, I was just guilty. Even my family thought I was guilty. And they believed the officer, you know, just like the judges and the prosecutors and everybody else. They believed what he said. And just because he said he saw me with the drugs and putting them in the center console, everybody took that and just ran with it and was like, “Okay, yeah he's a drug dealer.” So those times, for me, was just... man, it was just rough, and I just felt backed into a corner, and I just had to, ultimately, just deal with it.
Lee: So what makes it possible for the extension of the kind of forgiveness you've extended? And Andrew, on your side, what makes it possible to receive that kind of forgiveness that you've needed to receive?
Jameel: First, this situation was hurting me farther, because I was hurting people in prison because I was hurt. And that was the only way I could deal with it. And in the midst of that, I wanted to do something different, first, for my son. I wanted to give him something positive to look up to. And with Andrew’s situation, with him, it was just like... God forgave us, before me, even before I was born. Who am I to hold this thing against him? I didn't have no control over the situation at all. So that right there alone was enough for me to just walk away from the situation and just leave it alone. But to actually just really, really feel to let this thing go was... I had let it go already. You know what I'm saying? Because it was eating me up inside. I've had thoughts of hurting myself because of this thing. But the most... thing that was intriguing, that Andrew came forward and admitted his wrongs. And not only did he do that; when I did see him, he was straight apologizing. So that apology, and his willingness to stand up and step forward and say, “Hey, I wronged this person.” And it didn't matter at that point who I was or what color I was. He was being a man and saying, “I wronged this person.” And that ultimately helped, and is helping, in the process of forgiving.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And I'd say for me, like, receiving the forgiveness, there's been several times... almost like layered apologies for me and Jameel. The original time was just like this blanket apology. Like I was an awful human being. I did really bad things, and I know I did, and I'm so sorry that I did those things to you. No justification, no minimization. There's no reason that I can give you as a reason why I did what I did. All I can say is I'm sorry. And then as we got to know each other more, I started to see how my actions had affected him. You know, when we came back together - when God brought us back together through that nonprofit - Jameel was homeless at the time. And there was this place where I came into this realization that, had he not had to walk through what I did to him, he may not be in that place of homelessness at that point in his life, because he didn't have that long break that he had to rebuild from. So that was another conversation we had to have, where I had to say to him, “Man, I'm so sorry.” And he's just so grace-filled towards me. He's a reminder of Jesus in the flesh for me. And then there was a time we were working on the book, and he was talking about how his family didn't believe him. And it wasn't until I came out - after we came back together, and our local paper did a story where I admitted everything I had done - that his mom came back to him and said, “You know what, I'm sorry I've treated you like this for all these years. I really thought you were a drug dealer. But now that he said that he lied, I believe you now.” And it's like... man, not only did I take your freedom away from you, but I took your voice away from you. Like, that hurt. So I said to him, you know, like, “I need to apologize to you again.” And I think he's getting sick of me apologizing to him, but it's like these layers of realization of how much I hurt him in that action.
Lee: You are listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, the good life. We're most grateful to have you joining us. Please do us a favor and leave us one of those five-star reviews over on Apple podcasts and subscribe there or wherever you subscribe to podcasts. And remember, you can find our links, photos, books, and related videos from our extensive YouTube channel, all at tokensshow.com/podcast. We actually have the video of this interview with Jameel McGee and Andrew Collins, which you can find on that page, as well as get a link to Jameel and Andrew's book entitled Convicted: An Innocent Man, the Cop Who Framed Him, and an Unlikely Journey of Forgiveness and Friendship. Coming up, some profound words, both about social justice and personal forgiveness.
Part two in just a moment.
You are listening to Tokens and our interview with Jameel McGee and Andrew Collins.
What would you say to those who say, “All of this social justice stuff, blah, it's all about personal responsibility, and everybody will do what they're supposed to, everything will be fine. And I'm sick of hearing about the social dynamics of injustice.” What's your kind of quick one-to-three-sentence response to that?
Jameel: They're sick. Something is wrong. They got a cold, the flu, or something. ‘Cause if you're blind to the injustice, then you just don't want to see it. You’re content where we are. You're just content with where we are.
Andrew: Yeah. And I would add to that that, you know, as a white human being, to my brothers and sisters from Caucasia: we have the privilege.
[Laughter]
It's not a real place. Don't Google it.
[Laughter]
We have the privilege to walk away from these conversations because we get uncomfortable. I've told Jameel, now that we hang together and we travel together, I used to think black people were paranoid until I started hanging out with him, and I've seen the way that he's treated differently than I am. So it's given me a racial awakening. But in my awkwardness, in my whiteness, I can choose to walk away because it's tense, and I don't really know what to do with it. And if I don't have answers, I don't want to deal with it, I have the privilege to walk away. But I leave my brother, still, in that place where he has to deal with it. So to my white brothers and sisters: educate yourself. Learn about the terminology you're hearing. Don't just glaze over and say, “Ah, I don't know enough about it. I don't want to deal with it. Racism is over. Slavery is over.” That's that's so easy to say, but the systemic leftovers that are still there, we have to deal with, and it has to be in this generation. That was about eight sentences. I'm sorry.
[Laughter]
Lee: Well, yeah, we'll let you slide with those.
Andrew: A lot of run-ons too.
Lee: So the personal dimension: what do you say, what kind of counsel do you give, to those who are struggling with their own bitterness and their own hurts of what others have done to them, who can't find a way to let go, or who have the heavy weight of things they know they have done to others, and they don't know how to deal with that?
Jameel: Okay. I would say for the ones that's finding it hard to forgive: man, just understand, there was our father that’s in heaven that forgave us, and he's continuing to forgive us for every little thing that we do, long as we repent it. And just think: for everything that you have done, would you want to get charged for it? What if God held you accountable for every single thing you have done, not forgiving you? You have to answer for everything you have done. How would that look? So I would say, “Forgive. Let it go. Let God deal with it.” In my case, this was killing me - literally killing me - and I had to let this thing go. And in letting it go, it brought me so much life. I'm wider woke now versus who I was two years ago. God will do something with your hurt, with your brokenness. He the only one who can fix it. We can try. I could have tried. My trying was to hurt him. It wouldn't have worked. God told me that day in the park, “I can do this way better than you. What are you doing? Get out my way.” And I walked away. Look what God is doing now. So I urge you to let that thing go, no matter how deep, no matter how bad you think it is. It's all the same to him. Give it to him. Watch what he do with it. He'll open up your life. Long as you hold onto that thing, he's going to stand there and watch you hold it. Let it go. Give it to God and watch some things change.
Andrew: That's good. And I would say, if you're looking down here and, you know, you see where I'm coming from because you've done some bad things to some people, you know, God cannot bless you until you let that go. If you owe somebody an apology, apologize. That's your part. The day in the park, I wanted him to say, “I forgive you,” but that wasn't my part. My part was simply to say, “I'm sorry.” So if you owe somebody that apology, go do it. Don't worry about if they're going to say something slick to you, don't worry about what it might be, or what it might... you owe them that. You need to say it, because God wants to release you from that. And then don't hold yourself to a higher standard than what God has held you to. He said, as far as the East is from the West, so far are your sins removed from you. What would it look like if I was up here, you know, holding my head low, ashamed still of the things I did, even though forgiveness has been given? God has a plan for all of us and we can't walk into it if we're holding ourselves to a higher standard than he holds us to.
Lee: Andrew and Jameel, I'm grateful for you guys sharing with us today. I see the glistening in your eyes, and I understand what it means for you to share as you've shared with us today. And we're grateful for your life and your witness. Please show your thanks to Andrew and Jameel. Thank you guys.
[Applause]
[“Pass Me Not, O Gentle Savior” plays]
Lee: You've been listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, the good life. Thank you for joining us, and please remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And please remember to refer us to a fellow podcast listener. Feedback? Well, we would love to hear from you. Email us text or attach a voice memo and send to the address podcast@tokensshow.com.
Our thanks to all the stellar team that make this podcast possible. Executive producer and manager Christie Bragg of Bragg Management. Co-producer Jacob Lewis of Great Feeling Studios. Associate producer Leslie Thompson of Rogue Creative Marketing and Media. Associate producer Ashley Bayne. Our engineer Cariad Harmon. Production assistant Cara Fox. Our live event production team at Stonebrook Media led by Phil Barnett. And special thanks to Wes Yoder of Ambassador Speakers.
Thanks for listening and peace be unto thee. The Tokens podcast is a production of Tokens Media, LLC and Great Feeling Studios, both in Nashville, Tennessee.
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