TOKENS PODCAST: S5E8
The Enneagram is one of those things that polarizes certain groups of people at near meme level. Some swear by it, others write it off as useless; some use it for care and contemplation, others use it for critique and judgment. In this episode, Enneagram master teacher Suzanne Stabile helps clear the waters surrounding the ancient wisdom tool – clarifying what it is, what it isn’t, and why it just might be a quite helpful tools for seeing the world, understanding relationships, and finding unique ways to flourish according to one’s personality.
ABOUT THE GUEST
Suzanne Stabile is an Enneagram Master Teacher. Known as a “priceless source of wisdom” and a “grace-filled truth teller,” Suzanne has been a student of the Enneagram for more than 30 years. Her winsome, narrative style of teaching connects with audiences of all sizes and ages.
Following the publication of the Enneagram primer, The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery, Suzanne’s second book, The Path Between Us: An Enneagram Journey to Healthy Relationships, guides readers into deeper insights about themselves, their types, and others’ personalities. Her latest book, The Journey Toward Wholeness, uses the lens of our centers of intelligence to provide what we need to deal with the constant change and complexity of our world and to move towards lasting transformation in our lives.
Suzanne is also the host of the popular podcast, The Enneagram Journey. An interview style podcast, The Enneagram Journey seeks to promote community, patience, and tolerance through a growing understanding of the differences and similarities that undergird our humanity. Her 12-week small group curriculum provides an opportunity for groups to use Enneagram wisdom to travel towards health and wholeness together.
Suzanne makes her home in Dallas, Texas with her husband Rev. Joseph Stabile, a United Methodist pastor with whom she co-founded Life in the Trinity Ministry. She is the mother of four grown children and “Grams” to nine grandchildren.
ABOUT TOKENS SHOW & LEE C. CAMP
Tokens began in 2008. Our philosophical and theological variety shows and events hosted throughout the Nashville area imagine a world governed by hospitality, graciousness and joy; life marked by beauty, wonder and truthfulness; and social conditions ordered by justice, mercy and peace-making. We exhibit tokens of such a world in music-making, song-singing, and conversations about things that matter. We have fun, and we make fun: of religion, politics, and marketing. And ourselves. You might think of us as something like musicians without borders; or as poets, philosophers, theologians and humorists transgressing borders.
Lee is an Alabamian by birth, a Tennessean by choice, and has sojourned joyfully in Indiana, Texas, and Nairobi. He likes to think of himself as a radical conservative, or an orthodox liberal; loves teaching college and seminary students at Lipscomb University; delights in flying sailplanes; finds dark chocolate covered almonds with turbinado sea salt to be one of the finest confections of the human species; and gives great thanks for his lovely wife Laura, his three sons, and an abundance of family and friends, here in Music City and beyond. Besides teaching full-time, he hosts Nashville’s Tokens Show, and has authored three books. Lee has an Undergrad Degree in computer science (Lipscomb University, 1989); M.A. in theology and M.Div. (Abilene Christian University, 1993); M.A. and Ph.D. both in Christian Ethics (University of Notre Dame, 1999).
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TRANSCRIPT
Lee: This is Tokens. I'm Lee C. Camp.
If you're a regular listener to our podcast you know that the question of human flourishing is one we often raise. But what does "flourishing" in life actually look like? And- what are the factors, habits, and tendencies that stand in the way?
Suzanne: I think the Enneagram helps a lot with making space for creative dialogue that could ultimately move us forward.
Lee: That's Suzanne Stabile, author and master teacher of the personality tool known as the Enneagram.
The Enneagram is one of those things in the popular zeitgeist right now in many circles. You can hardly go to a party, at least in Nashville, without someone bringing it up. Or you may find it hard to work among folks without someone bringing up somebody's Enneagram number. This personality tool based around 9 personality types has reached meme level. And I often find myself suspicious of trends and fads.
But it turns out the recent fad is not actually new at all.
Suzanne: The Enneagram is several thousand years old. It has been found in every faith belief and that means that it's been found all over the world.
Lee: At its most basic the Enneagram posits that there are nine personality types that people have, but today we are intentionally not going into each of those nine types, rather we're going to take a larger view. The intention here is that before you start throwing around labels on yourself or others you understand the why of the Enneagram. How it aids in human flourishing.
I have myself succumbed to a degree to the Enneagram fad. Started a number of years ago. It has helped me gains some important wisdom about how to be a better husband, dad, friend, and co-worker: because, among other things, it has taught me a valuable lesson--that we don't all experience the world in the same way.
Suzanne: The reality is that the Enneagram is about nine ways of seeing.
I teach people who they're not, I don't teach people who they are. I teach people about the covering about the personality that they started to put on in childhood to make their way in the world. And there are transformational opportunities where you can through life recognize that you don't need to be protected in that exact way anymore. And you can allow that layer of your Enneagram personality, personality to fall away.
Lee: Today, whether you know anything about the Enneagram or not, and whether you ever -want- to know anything more about the Enneagram or not, this conversation with Suzanne is ultimately about wisdom. Wisdom that helps people make sense of themselves and others by peeling back layers of motivation, fear, and hubris.
All this, coming right up.
INTERVIEW
Lee: Suzanne Stabile is an author, speaker and teacher who's worked as an Enneagram master teacher, has earned her international acclaim. She's taught at universities, churches, and conferences all across the U.S. and abroad. Her books include The Road Back to You written with Tokens Show alum, Ian Cron, The Path Between Us and now her most recent, The Journey Toward Wholeness: Enneagram Wisdom for Stress, Balance, and Transformation.
She's also a former women's basketball coach at SMU, currently lives in Dallas with her husband, Joseph, mother of four grown children, and grams to nine grandchildren. So welcome, Suzanne.
Suzanne: Thank you very much. It's a gift for me to be with you.
Lee: Yes, a delight to get to have, have you with us. And, um, you know, you are, as I mentioned to you in our kind of pre-show chat, you were my first real introduction to the Enneagram. And, it just kind of opened up my vision of seeing the ways people relate to each other. And, and, and you taught me how to argue with my wife.
Suzanne: I always try to find a way to keep men who are new to the Enneagram in the room.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: Because generally they're there because somebody made them come Or. They're there because they were told it would help them in some meaningful way with relationships. And I always say at the opening of a big event that anybody who wants to leave at noon can, uh, and that we’ll be happy to refund their money. And we've only done it one time in all the years. And I think it's because people really are very intrigued by themselves. And you know, my, um, I'm married to, a Methodist pastor and I grew up United Methodist. But. I've, I've come to believe that even though I don't, I'm not a scripture scholar, I do believe that if I ever, and the reality is of whatever is beyond this reality that we can name. If I ever encounter Paul, I'm going to be able to say, you know, how you ask that question all the time? Why do I do the very things I don't want to do? Well, I know why.
Lee: I'm sure. I'm sure that he will appreciate hearing that from you.
Suzanne: Well, I'm not sure about that. But, I…
Lee: Well, that, that was, that was definitely intended as satire.
Suzanne: Good, good. I'm glad we're on the same page about that.
Lee: Well, I, I do think that, I'm going to ask you to just describe briefly for those who don't know what the Enneagram is. That in just a moment. But first before we get to that, I think that one of the things that introduction did for me, and then the ongoing reading and studying I've done about the Enneagram, one of the major gifts it's been to me is to disabuse me of the notion that everybody experiences the world in the same way. And to realize, oh, wait a second. Other people don't have the same emotional response or inner workings or inner thoughts about the very same experiences that I might have. And that it's a very liberating sort of openness to realize, hey, we're different. And that can then I think, um, diffuse, perhaps some of the emotional weight we unnecessarily put on other people's reactions when we realize, oh, well, they're just experiencing it differently than I am. But do you think that's a fair thing? Is that a common sort of response to the Enneagram?
Suzanne: Yeah. You know, the, the reality is that the Enneagram is about nine ways of seeing and, everybody falls in one of those nine ways, which is astonishing in itself.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And it has to do with how you take in information, how you process that information and then what you do with it. And it's just not the same for everybody. And I, I worked some in the recovery community using the Enneagram. And I, I think one of the things that I've learned from them that is perhaps among the most important is that every expectation is resentment waiting to happen. And until we understand that the person that we love most in the world, the person right next to us, is not taking in information and processing it in the same way that we are, then that changes the playing field for everybody.
Lee: Right.
Suzanne: And if that could be met with curiosity rather than judgment, then I am convinced that we could do far greater than we think we can.
Lee: Well, that whole, that whole notion of curiosity, rather than judgment has been immensely helpful to me as well, in that I'm thinking back, for example, to a couple of years ago. Christie Bragg who manages Tokens Show, I had popped off about something that had happened to one of our staff members and, and said, why, why did this happen?
And blah, blah, blah. And, and she sent me a text. She says, can we talk on the phone and said, yeah. And she said, you know, Lee, it might be helpful if, if you simply were to say, can you tell me more about this? And assume there might be things you don't know, rather than assuming you understand.
And so that sort of curiosity, rather than judgment, that's a terribly helpful practice.
Suzanne: I think so too. And I don't think it's our habit and it's not mirrored for us much, you know? We are now, in fact, mired in lining up in one line or another based on judgment sometimes with a total lack of curiosity.
Lee: Yeah, well, for those who are not familiar with the Enneagram, any kind of, you mentioned the nine big ways that people fall into experiencing the world, but are there other big picture things you might want to describe for those who are completely new to this particular conversation?
Suzanne: I think the four or five things I would say are these, the Enneagram is several thousand years old. It has been found in every faith belief and that means that it's been found all over the world. Nothing was published about the Enneagram until the 1970s.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And, prior to that, it was, uh, oral tradition, which I still think is the best. I much prefer to teach orally. And, in the, the days before the 1950s, Spiritual teachers or a wisdom people would teach the Enneagram to a disciple or a follower. And the only number they would teach you is your own,
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: Because of course, uh, you really can't do anything about anybody but yourself.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And so, what I was looking for coming out of a pretty safe container in childhood and a product of the sixties, I graduated from high school in 1969, and I wanted to make the world more compassionate, whatever I did, I wanted it to add compassion. And so, when I had the opportunity to learn the Enneagram from Father Richard Rohr, 30 plus years ago, I, believed that I had landed in a place that spoke my inner language. And he thought the same thing. And so, he asked me to study it for five years before I talked about it. And that was quite a challenge.
And I think that that gave me a broad enough foundation to be able to see its value and to be able to see that it's not the end all be all of anything.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And so, when people ask me, what's dangerous about the Enneagram, my answer is that you take it to be more than it is. It's just one spiritual wisdom tool, or if spirituality and that language isn't comfortable for you, it's just one wisdom.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And, you know, I'm kind of forgetting wisdom wherever I can. I, I think life's pretty challenging. And if you add it to other practices that you have and people you read and, belief systems that you find to be intriguing or supportive of your way of being in the world, then you have one more way of maybe living better and doing better.
Lee: You mentioned Recovery World and I've heard friends in the Recovery World, one of their lines they'll often use is take what you can use and leave the rest. And, uh, I find that helpful with regard to the Enneagram as well.
Suzanne: Yeah.
And I think the line that I was going to talk about that I pull from working in the recovery community is that, every expectation is resentment waiting to happen. And the reality is if you don't understand difference, and the difference in how we see, then you have expectations of other people that they can't meet, even if they wanted to, they can't. And then resentment builds and grows and builds and grows. And, I think the Enneagram helps a lot with making space for creative dialogue that could ultimately move us forward.
Lee: One of the, um, big categories or things that gets discussed in the basic Enneagram types is that each one has a major sin. So, first help us get beyond potentially the kind of, uh, moralistic types of revulsion that some people might experience, of that kind of language. And kind of describe for us the ways in which you see that operating.
Suzanne: Well, first of all, I don't use sin. I use passion.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: I've met too many people who have been hurt too deeply by the use of the word sin from people in authority. And so, my definition of sin as a Christian is missing the mark.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And, passion is helpful. So, we, we can't do every number. So, how about we'll do yours and mine?
Lee: Okay.
Suzanne: The passion for mine.
Lee: You're gonna, you're gonna out me. You're going to out me on…
Suzanne: Well, I don't have to.
Lee: No, no, I'm happy. I've talked about it before.
Suzanne: Okay. All right. I'm a two on the Enneagram and my passion is pride. So first of all, the Enneagram definition of pride is not the cultural definition of pride. And so that's the first hurdle that people would need good Enneagram teaching to get beyond.
And the Enneagram definition of pride is the inability or unwillingness to acknowledge one's own needs and suffering while tending to the needs of someone else.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: Twos on the Enneagram are the helper or the giver. And, uh, we can either give altruistically, or we can give manipulatively. And because of this passion and the fact that we can read other people's needs and kind of do the giving even before they ask, at times. We began to believe that we're independent, which relationally is a significant problem, because it means that interdependence is off the table. And in fact, we're not independent. We desperately need other people to need us because we don't feel like we have value if we're not needed. So that's a tiny little piece of a bigger picture. So, I, as you said, have four children, they're all married. I have nine grandchildren. I'm married to a pastor of the first United Methodist Church in Dallas, Texas, which is a flagship Methodist Church.
And there are people everywhere in my world, everywhere. And my children all went away to school and all came back. So, all my children and their spouses and all my grandchildren are here. They're 19 of us. So, if I give in to my Enneagram number in its average or below average way of being in the world, then I take care of other people and I don't have enough left to take care of the people I care of the most or of myself. So, it's actually a very holistic understanding of a way of being in the world. And, the, idea that it's reductive is simply formed from a place of not knowing what it is.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: Because it's actually quite expansive.
Lee: Yeah.
Suzanne: And it's not a belief system that replaces anything. It's just its own wisdom.
Lee: Yeah.
Suzanne: You want to hear about you or do you want to move on?
Lee: Let's hear it. Let's see. Let's see. Describe how, how I, experience things.
I've come to understand that I am a type 1 on the Enneagram also commonly labelled as the "perfectionist," a label I don't particularly like or find helpful; or the label "reformer."
Suzanne: Well, first of all, your passion is anger. And I want to say that if I was a one on the Enneagram, I would be angry. And I would be angry because you as a one have a critic that keeps up with everything you do. And for many ones, it's an audible voice that you hear. Nobody else hears the voice that you're hearing, which is, you know, makes you a little bit, different than me.
And, uh, I suppose…
Lee: I, can I share something or interrupt you just a second about this? So, when that first time I heard this description of the Enneagram from you, and you started describing, well, a one thinks this way. And I, I'm, I'm making my notes and I’m thinking yes. And would do this. And I think, yes. And, uh, does this and I say, yes. And I do this. And I think that, well, I would do that, but I wouldn't quite do it exactly like that. I would do it like this, which is the better way. And, and, you know, so this long list, and then, and then you said, but the way, you know, you're a one is if you have the voice in your head. And my immediate internal response was doesn't everyone have the voice in their head? So, to realize that no, the other people don't have this voice in their head. Yeah, you're right. It does kind of make you mad. It's like, why do I have to carry around this constant inner critic?
Suzanne: Exactly. But because you have the critic.
Actually the, cultural definition of anger is not what fits your passion either. Resentment fits your passion. And the reason for that is that you turn all anger in on yourself first, and it comes out as resentment.
Lee: Yeah. That's true.
Suzanne: And my question would be if I was being critiqued all day, every day, by a voice that nobody else hears. And I, we, we are convinced that our second oldest grandson is a one on the Enneagram. And I've known it quietly since he was five or six. And literally as an eight-year old, he said to his dad, do you hear voices that other people don't hear? And his dad said, well, no, I don't do you? And he said, yeah. And his dad said, well, what do the voices say?
And he said, well, I don't want to tell you. They're not very nice. So, you know, I could go off on a whole thing about Enneagram wisdom and education. Little kids who are ones don't think it's okay to erase. So, they start over and then when they start over all the time, they don't finish their work and then they miss recess and then they. It's just helpful.
And I don't defend the Enneagram to anybody. It's if you, if this is great for you, good. And if it's not okay. And I just say to people, you know, it's just true. That it's just true.
Lee: Yeah. And I appreciate what you're saying about avoiding the use of the language of sin, because that can just simply, miscommunicate the wisdom that you're trying to point to here, but this notion that there are. And that's my understanding, even, even with going back to the catalog of the seven deadly sins, we recently did an interview with Rebecca DeYoung, from Calvin and who has a book on the seven deadly sins, or as she calls them the seven capital vices, which is the more traditional language.
And, um, and she says, it goes back to the desert fathers and mothers who were trying to help people in kind of pastoral counseling. And what they're trying to do with that catalog of vices is to say, these are ways we're discovering a lot of people are getting hung up and are having difficulties in trying to live well.
And so, then they would try to give them practical wisdom about, well, if this is, if, if wrath or resentment is the one that you're dealing with, here are some things to try. Or if lust, just the one you're dealing with here are some things to try. And so, again, it's that sort of, if this helps you, then it helps you, you know, if it doesn't help you, that's fine.
It doesn't help you, but, but it can really help a lot of folks there.
Suzanne: Yeah, it really, it can. You know, another place I think it really helps is, I, you know, Dallas is in the Bible belt.
Lee: I've heard, I've heard that.
Suzanne: You know, there are, a lot of young adults to early forties, I would say, who are ready to break with the tradition they grew up with or the faith tradition they grew up with.
But out of respect for their parents, they don't know how to do that.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And the Enneagram is a game changer in terms of communication, because somehow in its nature, you can use Enneagram numbers to have a conversation with somebody that you could never ever get away with using their name.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And the result of that is that there's a new common language that families can speak to work through different ways of looking at the world, and different generational ideas and practices, that don't land as judgmental or harsh, that give people room to make room for the other people in their family.
Lee: Hmm. Could you give an example of a way you seen that happen?
Suzanne: Sure. I believe that there are more sixes than any other number. And after sixes, I think nines are the next greatest number. And what happens with sixes is that their passion is fear, but it's better named as anxiety because they are very concerned about possible future events. So, if in any group we're in of 50 or more, there are more sixes than any other number potentially. And if the struggle they have in greeting the day and making life work is anxiety. And if they have to live in a culture that is anxious as ours has been for a time, then, you know. When I first started writing my last book, which was like, I don't know, now two and a half years ago, I guess, I had been saying there is anger and anxiety falling on all of us everywhere.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: Unbidden. It's just falling on us. Well, if, if you're a one or a six, that's a different problem, then if you're a two or a nine. And so, if you can understand that as a 19-year-old that your grandmother is a six, she doesn't know anything about the Enneagram. She doesn't know that there are nine ways of seeing the world and processing information.
She manages her anxiety with worst case scenario planning, and she has been attached to a belief system that says, if you don't go by the rules, you are in a lot of trouble. Then, she just loves you by wanting you to go through with the belief system that she handed to you. And by honoring all those rules. And one tends to be less impatient with, somebody whose lens is fear and anxiety. And if that's not your own, then you think what's wrong with you? There's no reason to believe that way. Why are you attached to that? Why can't you see my way of thinking? And as soon as you make room for fear and anxiety, then you can address it with kindness instead of judgment and impatience.
And you can say, you know, I think you're afraid of things that I'm not afraid of. And you worry about things that I'm not worried about. So, you might follow that with here's my question. My grandchildren call me grams. So, we'll go with. Here's the question. You, you could say, grams. Do you think I'm a good human being? Do you think I'm, have been kind and mindful of others and I have grown up well and that I am going to make good decisions? And, you know, what grandmother is going to say, no, I don't think that? And then you say, well, you know, maybe we just are on two paths headed to the same place
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And maybe we can learn from each other.
And I love you. And I don't want you to worry about me.
Lee: Hmm. Yeah. So, it provides a way to reframe what one is experiencing in another person. That doesn't have to make it so personally felt or personally experienced.
Suzanne: Right. And it's not I’m right. And you're wrong. It's, we’re different.
Lee: Yeah. Yeah.
You know, you talk a lot about, change and transformation, I saw in the, in The Road Back to You, this quote y'all had from Flannery O'Connor: “Accepting oneself does not preclude an attempt to become better.” Which, uh, which I found that very helpful. But what are some, what are some kind of basic or major lessons you've learned in what facilitates or make space for fruitful change in someone's life?
What's kind of the precursor tilling of the soil, we might say in a person, before significant transformation or change can occur?
Suzanne: That's a big question. Well, I want to start with the word allow.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: I think that in the west and in the United States, we are kind of convinced that we're in charge, that we have our own destiny in our hands and that we are in control. You know, control’s my very favorite illusion, but it's still an illusion.
Lee: Yeah.
Suzanne: And I believe that change occurs when you take on something new. So, I would, from our pre-show conversation, I would suggest that you changed in some ways of how you see when I taught you the Enneagram. And in the years since, it has been transformational in your relationship with other people. But all of that involves allowing.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And so, change is when you take on something new. Transformation occurs when something old falls away, usually beyond your control. The key with Enneagram wisdom is that you learn, and it's very difficult to observe yourself non-judgmentally. And the reason you have to be nonjudgmental in self-observation is because as soon as you judge yourself, you defend yourself and that makes your personality bigger, not smaller.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: Which leads me to the reality that I teach people who they're not, I don't teach people who they are. I teach people about the covering about the personality that they started to put on in childhood to make their way in the world. And there are transformational opportunities where you can through life recognize that you don't need to be protected in that exact way anymore. And you can allow that layer of your Enneagram personality, personality to fall away.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: Because you just don't need it anymore.
Lee: Yeah.
Suzanne: And when you try to make it go away, your personality gets bigger, not less. And underneath all of this personality is who you essentially are. My parents lived to be 90 to an 89 and for whatever reason, they were highly evolved and letting go of life was not difficult for them.
Lee: Uh, huh?
Suzanne: Because they, they had learned to allow life to happen.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: My dad started practicing medicine before sulfa drugs. So, imagine that,
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And he retired in 1987. So that's a long time of change that allowed transformative practices for people's lives. Maybe that's where they got it.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: But there was no cleaning for them.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And I watched them and I thought, that's what I want. I want to allow life to be what it is and unfold as it does. And I want to, to do good with my space and that time. And anything that helps me understand what I don't need, makes my, uh, load a little lighter for the journey.
Lee: Hmm. Yup.
Suzanne: And so, I've done a lot of things that changed me, but you know that thing where you go to a movie? Well, I guess people don't go to movies anymore, but you watch a movie and, you think, oh, that movie is unbelievable.
I'll never be the same. And then two months later, you want to tell somebody about it and you think, what is the name of that movie that changed you forever?
Lee: Right. Right. Right.
Suzanne: Or the book you read or the talk you heard, or the conversation you were part of or the music you heard or. I think allowing things to come and go is essential. So, the next thing is, well, great. I want transformation. So how do I get that? Well, you don't get it, but you don't waste an opportunity to experience it when it comes your way. My new book opens with a chapter on liminality, uh, liminal space is kind of a trendy thing to talk about for the last few years. I went back and, through my old journals to find out when father Richard Rohr talked to my husband, Joe and me about liminal space for the first time. And it was 19 years ago. And the thing about liminal space, according to the wisdom folks, all wisdom, not Enneagram wisdom folks. You know, theologians and people I get to hear at times. The thing about liminal space is that it's the most teachable space. So, we are coming out of two years of liminality. My question is, did we know to allow part of that to unfold? Or were we just trying to control every part of it the whole time? And did we know to ask the question, what am I learning? And I, I knew to ask the question and I still got lost in it…
Lee: Yeah.
Suzanne: …for months at a point at a certain point. And didn't ask, what am I learning? What's here for me to learn. And I think if you don't understand the lens through which you see the world, then you're always trying to figure yourself out. And that takes a lot of energy that you then don't have to use in other ways, walking beside or in tandem with, or in conversation with other people.
Lee: You're listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, and the good life. We’re most grateful to have you joining us.
If you've not yet done so, subscribe today to the Tokens podcast on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Castbox, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
We do love hearing from you, and are always pleased to hear some of the things you'd like to hear more about.
Thank you to Amos Allen who wrote in response to our episode entitled The Business of War with Dr. Justin Barringer: Amos said:
While many interviews are informative and formative, listening to Justin and Lee share w/each other and us was transformative. I don’t know how to stop the [] Cheney’s or [] Putin’s of the world, but I can be a friend. I can balance social justice efforts and reading with play, counseling and rest.
I think of Tokens podcasts as “Good Trouble.” (Thank you, John Lewis.) Thanks to all who produce good trouble via Tokens.
Thank you, Amos.
If you'd like to email us, you can do so us at podcast@tokensshow.com. Also remember you can sign up for our email list, or find out how to join us for a live event, all at tokensshow.com.
This is our interview with Suzanne Stabile. Coming up, we'll hear more about how one might use the Enneagram to dispel the myth of willpower and bring about real, lasting transformation.
Part two in just a moment.
HALFWAY POINT
Lee: Welcome back to Tokens and our interview with Suzanne Stabile.
Let me go back to the first piece you pointed to there, of the need to begin to observe oneself non-judgmentally and that's been something that I've worked pretty hard on myself for myself. And I think that one of the initial inhibitions towards that practice for me was what I discovered in time is a false conviction, uh, grounded, more in shame, but I realized that I'm, I was afraid to observe myself non-judgmentally because I thought thereby, I would perhaps give license to some illicit thing or desire in me.
And I thought kind of by beating myself up more, I could in fact get better, which turned out to be a horrible strategy, but, but for whatever reason, uh, that was kind of wired into me. But, what's kind of some advice you would give on first steps or even advanced steps in learning to observe oneself in a non-judgmental fashion?
Suzanne: Well, I think the first thing you would have to live into is that willpower is a myth that's fueled by emotion and it doesn't get you far. And it for sure doesn't get you far with any kind of internal work. Joe and I joined the YMCA in January, every year for five years in a row. Cause you could join for free for three months. And we didn't ever pay the money in April because in January we were all whipped up about having time to go to the Y and do all the stuff. And then our lives started up again after the holidays and we didn't have that time and we didn't go and we didn't do it. And I think that if you, so let me give you an example. I don't know what part of your world that you have to have as perfect as you can get it, but I know there's one, it may be more than one, but I know there's one.
All right. So, if I said to you, okay, well you need to not do that anymore. Just don't do that. Don't worry about that. Doesn't matter. It's good as everybody else. The guy down the streets closet looks like that. You're, you're all good. You just leave it like it is. You can't do that. And if you try to use willpower to do it, you can't do that either. When I get really tired and feel like people don't love me and they don't appreciate me and all of that stuff. I just kind of slide down the wall and cry and say, everybody takes me for granted and I'm done. I'm not going to give to people anymore. Um, I'm not going to do it anymore. I'm just finished. And that doesn’t last an hour for me, because my way of seeing is whoever's right in front of me and, and whatever way I can do something to be helpful.
And sometimes I do that for them. And sometimes I do that from me. And so, the, the goal is to do it more often for them than for me, right? But then that involves discernment. Then I have to say, okay, why am I moving toward this person? Do I want something in return? And then I have to say, I wonder if this other person wants my help.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And then I have to ask, is it mine to do, or is it somebody else's to do? And what do I have to say no to, to say yes to this? So, if I observe myself, kind of hovering above myself, you know, it's my only angelic moment. So, I take that idea. If I kind of do that, and I say, look in there, Suzanne, you helped that person.
And you made them so uncomfortable because they didn't want your help. But I can't say, okay, I'm not helping people anymore. You can't say I'm not going to perfect this thing anymore because it's the lens through which you see. Now here's another layer for you. All those things that you perfect are your intuitive way of managing your anger. And so, if we ra ra and are patronizing with you about trying to perfect those things, then you lose that way of managing anger. As I told you, Richard Rohr taught me the Enneagram a long time ago, and he's a one on the Enneagram as are you. And he says, you know, when I think the world's going to hell, I clean my bathroom because I can't control the world. And in that moment, I feel like I desperately need to control something.
Lee: Yes. Yeah.
Suzanne: I'm not saying that I know how to talk about this theologically, but I would say this. The Paschal Mystery, which is what we as Christians live by in terms of an understanding of living dying and rising, for me, happens a hundred times a day.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And it is in that awareness of I'm getting it right. I'm not getting it right.
I get to try again. That, I have been able to relax a little bit about life.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And discover my goodness.
Lee: You've worked, as I understand it, a fair amount in the Baylor healthcare system, uh, with both cancer and transplant patients, is that correct?
Suzanne: No, staff.
Lee: Oh, staff. Okay. So, there you have folks who I would imagine are dealing with very weighty, um, sometimes, tragic, perhaps engagements with life and death.
What are the things that you've learned about resilience or dealing with one's own stuff in the face of that sort of stress, potential stress, or anxiety, that's worth that you you've noted in significant ways?
Suzanne: One of the foundational pieces of wisdom that I operate from is the work of Maurice Nicole, who was an Englishman who worked in the forties and fifties. And he says that there are three centers of intelligence and that they are thinking, feeling and doing, and that there are only three. And one of the three defines our way of encountering the world first every time. So, when you receive information from the environment, you as a one on the Enneagram, uh, respond first with, what am I going to do? I respond first with what do I feel? And other personality types respond first with what do I think? And then, Karen Horney, who was a great psychiatrist at the time who did a lot of really good work, also wrote a paper and said, she's German American.
And she said, we all either move toward other people away from other people or against other people. So, to not go too deep, but to try to answer your question with what I think is the best answer. Um, the Enneagram is divided into three triads based on how you take in information. Is it with what I think, what do I feel, or what am I going to do? And then, you add Karen Horney’s work on top of that. And in each one of those triads, there's one personality type that moves away from other people, one that moves toward and one that moves against. So, the first thing is that that kind of, that kind of makes you think, okay, well, if you take the Enneagram and then you apply another theory on top of that and it fits, and then you apply another theory on top of that and it fits and they were not Enneagram people.
Then you have another way of thinking there must be something here, then. But what happens that I think is most important in hospital work happens in that while one of those three centers is dominant and one supports the dominant one is repressed. So, there are three personality types that are feeling repressed three that are doing repressed and three that are thinking repressed.
And I don't have time to talk about that in this sitting with you, but I would say that, that's where the magic is in Enneagram work, but you got to do other work to get there.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And the reason I'm saying that is because if you learn to bring up your repressed center, then you approach life with more balance because each of those centers of intelligence needs to be used for its purpose.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: So, I can work with hospital chaplains for a day and a half. If they've had some Enneagram background and for two and a half days, I can give them the background. And I can help them in the first two visits with a patient. No, pretty much, pretty much 95% of the time, whether or not the person is feeling repressed, thinking repressed or doing repressed. And once they know that, then they understand Enneagram stances, and then they understand how to approach those three different groups of people in the way that's the most helpful to the patient.
Lee: Hm. Yeah. I got a new friend here in Nashville who, uh, loves the, uh, Episcopal prayer book. And he was telling me recently about how it hit him after some years of, I think he said, it's the prayer for busing a table that says something like make us mindful of the needs of others.
And he's a big Enneagram fan himself. And he said that, um, he started paying more attention to that. And even thinking through, if I can, if I can have some idea of what other people's needs are through something like the Enneagram than it allows me to be truly of more help to people in a way to kind of answer my prayer.
So, I hear that same sort of approach there in what you're describing of. And again, that, that, that's a very, you're going back to the classic virtue of prudence, you know, that requires us to pay attention to all the complexities of, uh, of any sort of decision. It's a sort of prudential judgment. And it's, it's saying what I know in this particular circumstance with this particular person at this particular time, what might be most helpful to them.
And so, again, it's a, it's a very complex, uh, set of commitments there. Yeah. Lovely.
Suzanne: But very doable, very doable. My daughter, my oldest daughter is an eight on the Enneagram, so she's fairly aggressive. And, uh, she called me one morning. She now teaches all over the country Enneagram, but when she was learning, I don't know. Maybe it's been 10 years ago now she called me and said, um, mom, I don't really think the golden rule applies to eights. I said what? She said, I don't think the golden rule applies to eights. I teach everybody, I treat everybody exactly like I want to be treated and it just usually doesn't go well. And since that moment, I have been saying that one of the things the Enneagram offers us is a way to treat other people the way they want to be treated and not the way that we want to be treated.
Lee: Yes.
Suzanne: And those are very different ways.
Lee: Right.
And the subtitle of your third book, uh, Enneagram Wisdom for Stress, Balance, and Transformation. And obviously we, uh, we continue to be in a time of great stress in various ways. And going hearkening back to something you said earlier about kind of how palpable anger is in our culture.
I've talked with a couple of colleagues here recently and with my wife about how I've noticed of late that my anger that I have had generally stays, as you said, kind of inner, directed at myself mostly. But I've noticed lately that, like it really caught my attention probably in the last month I hung up, I had this phone conversation and my colleague had called me and they had mentioned another colleague of mine.
And I hung the phone up and I was outside on my deck and I hung the phone up and I said, I hate and I called the other colleague's name. And I, it just took me aback because I thought I don't talk that way. You know, that's not the way I talk and react to the world. And I find, you know, I find that very unacceptable in myself, but I, but then I started noticing how more and more and more I'm noticing how this sharp feelings of anger and frustration are coming out.
So, then I was talking to another colleague about that and they said, well, she said, maybe this is just a lot of us are experiencing a lot more anger because of the immense stress that we're experiencing in our culture. But I guess one observations about that and two, major wisdom on dealing with those realities.
Suzanne: I think we overuse the word anger, and I hate to say this to you. Cause I don't want you to use this as an excuse to not say you're angry when you're angry, because you need to, that's what you need to do. You need to claim anger in real time, but we tend to use the word anger for frustration, fear, anxiety, being misunderstood, loss. And I don't think those words don't mean the same thing. And I don't think that we're really that angry. I think we're afraid. And I think we're afraid because we have been allowed to live with the illusion that we have more control than we have. I think, some people are resentful or frustrated or afraid because they don't know if they're going to have a job after Covid.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And, you know, we're all moving so quickly.
When people say, how you doing, they don't mean how are you doing? They mean, hi.
Lee: Right.
Suzanne: And I'm imagining, cause I know some of the people, I love some of the people that you love and who love you. And I'm guessing that you get to sit down with a group of people and talk about the deeper things of life pretty much when you want to. But what about people who don't get to do that? And what about people for whom everything is input? Um, you know, as a two on the Enneagram, I'm a verbal processor. I can't think things through. I'm thinking repressed. I have to verbally say things to understand them for myself. You know how many people want to hear me verbally process?
Not many.
Lee: Yeah.
Suzanne: I'm married to a nine on the Enneagram and you know, they only hear two thirds of what's happening. So, he happily listens and I know he's not getting all that. So, I think the first thing I would say is we're overusing the word anger. The second thing I would say is, I just don't think we are as safe as we thought we were.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: In a micro way and in a macro way, I think we, it didn't occur to us that a pandemic would happen in our lifetime. The things that are happening worldwide right now didn't occur to us. And so, I think we don't feel ready and we take out that frustration on whatever's right in front of us. And this is one of the most important things I'm going to say as far as I'm concerned. I've been teaching people for a long, long time.
And everybody I've ever met once at least these two things they want to belong and they want their life to have meaning. And both things are up for grabs right now. Belonging, uh, is awfully hard for some people to experience. And, you know, if you just line up, if there are two choices of lines to get in and they oppose one another, then you can line up on either side and belong.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And I think people have sold out for that kind of belonging instead of, for a deeper belonging because of a need that we've not met in another way. I don't know how children are going to come out of this time, but I'm not sure they're going to come out feeling like they can be anything they want to be and become anybody they want to become. I don't know that we'll ever see a time, we won't in my lifetime, where there are all these avenues and possibilities for everybody to do something meaningful with their lives. And I think we have to be careful that we don't start saying, well, this has meaning and this doesn't. Whatever is ours to do is meaningful. And we need to be given an opportunity to do it. And, dividing into camps. Doesn't give us that opportunity. And, so, I am hoping, and as a Christian praying for a little more space, that is non-dualistic.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: You know, what if our goal for a month was, I'm going to try to see everything as both.
That could be true. And that could be true. Instead of either, that's true, and that's not. Either it's right or it's wrong. Either it's good or it's bad. That takes some reprogramming to do. I started watching myself, you know. I see a color I don't like; I see a car I don't like; I see a dress I don't like. I see an opportunity for soup this morning on the news on the commercial.
And I just said, oh, I would hate that. It's like, I've never tasted it. I don't know if I would hate it. And why am I talking about hating. Right? It's so comfortable to just see everything dualistically.
Lee: As we get close to our conclusion here, uh, closing words of encouragement or suggestions about how to explore more or lean into, as you said earlier, kind of acceptance of the possibility of change in ourselves?
Suzanne: There's a story that Jack Kornfield tells, at the beginning of his book, The Wise Heart about, a group of Tibetan monks who had been caring for this huge big statue of Buddha. And it was a big clay statue and when, when it would get, and it had lived and been all right and been patched and managed and handled through war and weather and all kinds of things for hundreds of years.
But when it would get really hot and there wasn't much rain or moisture, it would crack and they would patch it. And one day, one of the monks saw this big crack. And like a young monk would do, he went and got a flashlight. Cause the crack was big enough that he thought he could see what was inside and using the flashlight he could see.
And what shown back at him was pure, brilliant gold. And they took all of the clay off of the Buddha and found the largest, most beautiful golden Buddha in the world. And the thing that I would say is that. I think that we have put on layers and layers and layers of protective gear and in any Toram language, we call it layers of personality. And underneath all of those layers is the pure beauty of who we each are.
And I'm trying to live these days, remembering that underneath all the protection that I see on other people is this pure, beautiful, wonderful human being. And that the same is true underneath me. And if that's too heavy, then I've got a littler one that you can work with. I tore my distal bicep tendon right before Thanksgiving. And it's a very unusual injury. It's usually your radio bicep tendon, and, it's a four-to-six-month recovery.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: And it's tricky. So, I was in a sling for a while, and now I'm toward the end of the third month. And I'm wearing a brace that nobody else can see, but you can. If I wear this brace forever, I'll never get back full use of this arm. But if I hadn't put it on in the beginning, then I also would have never had full recovery from the injury. And so, I don't want people to think that all this clay covering is bad, it was necessary.
Lee: Hm.
Suzanne: But what about if it's not necessary, now?
Lee: Yeah.
Suzanne: And you have to allow it to fall away, you can't make it go away.
Lee: Hmm.
Suzanne: And that's my hope.
Lee: I've been talking to Suzanne Stabile, Enneagram master teacher, author of The Journey Toward Wholeness: Enneagram Wisdom for Stress, Balance, and Transformation. Thank you so much, Suzanne. It's been a delight to be with you today.
Suzanne: Thank you, Lee. It's been a delight for me too.
Lee: You've been listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, the good life.
If you would like to hear more about the Enneagram, check out our season one interview with Suzanne's co-author of The Road Back to You, Ian Cron.
Remember you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Castbox or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
Our thanks to all the stellar team that makes this podcast possible. Christie Bragg Jakob Lewis, Ashley Bayne, Tom Anderson and Cariad Harmon. Music beds by Zach and Maggie White, and Blue Dot Sessions.
Thanks for listening, and peace be unto thee.
The Tokens podcast is a production of Tokens Media, LLC and Great Feeling Studios.
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